[Yak] Riding in Chile

Tue Aug 23 10:47:26 CDT 2005

Several years ago a small group of us rode the Lake District.  We flew
into Santiago, then to Puerto Mont and then started riding, crossing
into Argentina, going to Bariloche and up to San Martin de los Andes and
back to Temuco and then back to Santiago.  It was a wonderful
experience.  I know now that several tour groups like Back Roads and
Experience Plus do a similar trip.  If you can get that far south, I'd
highly recommend riding in that particular area.  I'd recommend a
mountain bike or pretty wide tires as you will be on gravel roads much
of the time.  Little traffic, beautiful scenery and great food!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: yak-bounces at bikefriday.com [mailto:yak-bounces at bikefriday.com] On
Behalf Of yak-request at bikefriday.com
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:32 AM
To: yak at bikefriday.com
Subject: Yak Digest, Vol 14, Issue 17

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Today's Topics:

   1.  cycling Chile (Giovanni Calcagno)
   2. Re:  Re: Gearing for the Stelvio (John S. Allen)
   3. Re:  Re: Gearing for the Stelvio (John S. Allen)
   4.  Triple gearing -- 36t inner? (Edward Felker)
   5. Re:  Re: Gearing for the Stelvio (John S. Allen)
   6.  Capreo Wheel Set for Sale (Marv Lewallen)
   7.  Capreo Wheel Set (Marv Lewallen)
   8. Re:  Triple gearing -- 36t inner? (John S. Allen)
   9. Re:  Triple gearing -- 36t inner? (Edward Felker)
  10. Re:  Triple gearing -- 36t inner? (alex wetmore)
  11. Re:  Triple gearing -- 36t inner? (Edward Felker)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:04:00 +0200
From: "Giovanni Calcagno" <giovannicalcagno at tin.it>
Subject: [Yak] cycling Chile
To: <yak at bikefriday.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c5a427$99a822e0$af747450 at 88g819y562zqqw6>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

I'll probably have to spend 3 weeks in Cile next December/January
visiting 
friends with my family.
I'll stay in a village  40 km from Santiago.
Has any yaksters ever ride in Chile and/or can give me any advice?
Giovanni Italy 

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:06:18 -0400
From: "John S. Allen" <jsallen at bikexprt.com>
Subject: Re: [Yak] Re: Gearing for the Stelvio
To: "Andrew P. Black" <apblack at ownmail.net>, yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050818152915.0493bd90 at pop.spamcop.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:01 AM 8/18/2005, Andrew P. Black wrote:
>At 12:00 -0500 2005.8.17, John S. Allen wrote:
>>A 24 or 26-tooth inner chainring with the existing
>>26-tooth largest sprocket would achieve this and is achievable with 
>>common 110 / 74 or 130 /74 mm mm bolt circle crankset
>
>The problem is that Rufus has an Air Friday.  As previously discussed, 
>the
>placement of the rear brake calliper on top of the monostay stops one
from 
>using a small inner chainring on an AF.

Oh, I didn't know that. Is it a question of not being able to use a
triple, 
or of how small the smallest chainwheel can be? In the latter case, what
is 
the smallest that can be used?

>An MTB cassette with a 32 or 34 big cog would solve the problem, but 
>such
>cassettes are not available standard for a Capreo Hub.  BF will make a 
>"FrankenCassette" if you need one.

Then that's the way to go. A cassette that would make sense to me for a 
9-speed would be a 10-12-14-16-18-20-23-27-34. This would lose the 
super-smooth Hyperglide shifting in the jumps that are not part of a 
standard cassette, but it would give reasonably tight jumps, especially
in 
the midrange where it matters, and a very wide range of  23 through 104 
gear inches (1.8 through 8.3 m development) with the existing 52-39 
chainrings. Does Shimano make the necessary cogs for this combination?
If 
not, a 9-10-11-13-15-17-19-22-27-34 definitely would be possible. Or you

could have somewhat tighter ratios at the expense of a lower but still 
ample, 92 inch top gear (7.5 m development)  with an 
11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-34 -- definitely possible with an ordinary, non 
Capreo freehub.

The other obvious alternative would be a rear wheel with a Sachs 3 x 7
or 3 
x 9, but that would require a different rear wheel. Well, so would the 
non-Capreo freehub..

John S. "gear freak who studied at the toestrapped feet of Frank Berto"
Allen 7 University Park Waltham, MA  02453-1523  USA 781 891-9307
jsallen at bikexprt.com http://www.bikexprt.com 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:23:12 -0400
From: "John S. Allen" <jsallen at bikexprt.com>
Subject: Re: [Yak] Re: Gearing for the Stelvio
To: "Andrew P. Black" <apblack at ownmail.net>, yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050818172030.04a1a4d0 at pop.spamcop.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 04:06 PM 8/18/2005, I wrote:

If not, a 9-10-11-13-15-17-19-22-27-34 definitely would be possible.

whoops, I lost count, that's 10 cogs. Try 9-10-11-13-15-17-20-26-34 
or  9-10-11-13-15-17-20-24-32

John S. Allen
7 University Park
Waltham, MA  02453-1523  USA
781 891-9307
jsallen at bikexprt.com
http://www.bikexprt.com 

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:19:17 -0400
From: Edward Felker <edwardfelker at verizon.net>
Subject: [Yak] Triple gearing -- 36t inner?
To: yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <43050965.9080804 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I'm awaiting my new (to me) Pocket Rocket from Bike Friday. It's a 1995 
that Bike Friday resold to me, with new racing green paint.  Wow! I'm 
finally joining the Friday community. Not a minute too soon considering 
the domestic airlines' attitude toward bikes.

The new PR will come with a 50-60 chainrings on a double 130mm crankset.

I've figured that I'll run an 11-34 cassette, which will give me about 
the same low gear as my 700c bike with a 30-27 lowest combo.

But, I also see Friday sells the TA 74mm ring in a 36 tooth size. I'm 
considering a 36-50-60 setup with triple 130/74 arms; this would let me 
run either a tighter cassette or lower my gearing even further for 
loaded touring.

Anyone out there using or tried a 36 tooth inner? Comments appreciated.

Ed Felker
Arlington, VA

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:34:09 -0400
From: "John S. Allen" <jsallen at bikexprt.com>
Subject: Re: [Yak] Re: Gearing for the Stelvio
To: alex wetmore <alex at phred.org>
Cc: yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050818211215.04be5608 at pop.spamcop.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 05:26 PM 8/18/2005, alex wetmore wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, John S. Allen wrote:
>>If not, a 9-10-11-13-15-17-19-22-27-34 definitely would be possible.
>>
>>whoops, I lost count, that's 10 cogs. Try 9-10-11-13-15-17-20-26-34 or
>>9-10-11-13-15-17-20-24-32
>
>That has some weird gaps:
>11%, 10%, 18%, 15%, 13%, 17%, 30%, 30%
>
>I understand the big gaps on the low end, but don't understand using 
>such small gaps on the high end because those gears aren't that 
>frequently used anyway.
>
>I'd probably go for something like:
>9-11-13-15-17-20-24-28-32

It appears from what I found on the Web that the Capreo always is sold
with 9-10-11-13-15-17-20-23-26 tooth cogs, and the three smallest are 
nonstandard so they can't be replaced with others.
Shimano unfortunately often isn't very imaginative in the cogs it
offers, 
for example in the case of the Capreo the option apparently isn't
provided 
for a 9-tooth smallest cogs with 2-tooth jumps at the top to get a wider

range and more even spacing.

>Building decent jumps with small cogs is hard, if it was my bike I 
>think I'd just stick with an 11-34 cassette and give up the highest 
>gear.

Me too, but for someone who has a Capreo this apparently requires
building 
up a new wheel.

John S. Allen
7 University Park
Waltham, MA  02453-1523  USA
781 891-9307
jsallen at bikexprt.com
http://www.bikexprt.com 

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:29:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marv Lewallen <marvlewallen at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Yak] Capreo Wheel Set for Sale
To: Yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <20050819022948.90938.qmail at web53013.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Yaksters,

I converted  my  '04 NWT with a Rohloff hub and am now happily
derailleur free!

Some one can buy my 406 Capreo wheel set on eBay at: 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7177227685

If anyone has questions about the Rohloff conversion, email me directly
and I'll answer all.

Marv 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marv Lewallen <marvlewallen at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Yak] Capreo Wheel Set
To: Yak at bikeFriday.com
Message-ID: <20050819023500.81568.qmail at web53009.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Sorry...correct link is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bike-Friday-Capreo-406-Wheel-Set_W0QQitemZ7177227685
QQcategoryZ7295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:47:55 -0400
From: "John S. Allen" <jsallen at bikexprt.com>
Subject: Re: [Yak] Triple gearing -- 36t inner?
To: Edward Felker <edwardfelker at verizon.net>, yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050819082232.04dd08e0 at pop.spamcop.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 06:19 PM 8/18/2005, Edward Felker wrote:
>I'm awaiting my new (to me) Pocket Rocket from Bike Friday. It's a 1995
>that Bike Friday resold to me, with new racing green paint.  Wow! I'm 
>finally joining the Friday community. Not a minute too soon considering

>the domestic airlines' attitude toward bikes.
>
>The new PR will come with a 50-60 chainrings on a double 130mm 
>crankset.
>I've figured that I'll run an 11-34 cassette, which will give me about
the 
>same low gear as my 700c bike with a 30-27 lowest combo.
>
>But, I also see Friday sells the TA 74mm ring in a 36 tooth size. I'm
>considering a 36-50-60 setup with triple 130/74 arms; this would let me

>run either a tighter cassette or lower my gearing even further for
loaded 
>touring.
>
>Anyone out there using or tried a 36 tooth inner? Comments appreciated.
>
>Ed Felker
>Arlington, VA

I can't comment on this chainwheel setup on a Friday, but I have long
been 
a fan of low gears, and as I get older, I'm more so.

I wonder whether you would be able to manage a 36T inner with a 60T
outer, 
though. The 24T range is right at the limit of the longest-cage front 
derailleurs, and this problem is exacerbated by the 60T large chainring,

which usually doesn't conform to the curve of the cage, made for 52T or 
less (Maybe Friday can sell you a special front derailleur -- I don't 
know).  You also would be pushing the limit of a rear derailleur's chain

takeup with the 36-60 and an 11-34 wide-range cassette. If you only used

the small chainring with the largest three rear sprockets (the only ones

with which it provides unique ratios, and avoids the chain's rubbing on
the 
middle chainwheel, anyway) then you probably could avoid the chain's 
hanging slack and make the combination work, with the right derailleurs.

The 60-11 gives you a top gear of 109 inches (8.7 m development), higher

than you will ever need unless you are a top paceline rider, or pedal on

downgrades where tucking and coasting gets you going faster anyway. The
36T 
would give you a low gear of 21 inches (1.7 m development), about as low
as 
you would ever need unless you are carrying touring baggage up the
steepest 
roads anywhere. I could show you some in New England -- try Monroe-Rowe 
Road in western Massachusetts-- or Lincoln Gap, in Vermont, west to
east, 
which had me standing on the pedals and nearly passing out in a 22-inch 
gear (1.75 m development) -- a rare and exhilarating experience!

You might consider going to something like a 40-56 double or 36-46-56 
triple instead. These would avoid some of the shifting problems and
still 
give you an ample gear range for most purposes..

John S. Allen

jsallen *at* bikexprt.com (replace " *at* " with "@")

http://www.bikexprt.com/  

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:12:49 -0400
From: Edward Felker <edwardfelker at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Yak] Triple gearing -- 36t inner?
To: "John S. Allen" <jsallen at bikexprt.com>
Cc: yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <43060501.4060606 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> At 06:19 PM 8/18/2005, Edward Felker wrote:
> 
> 
>> Anyone out there using or tried a 36 tooth inner? Comments 
>> appreciated.
>> 

John S. Allen wrote:>
> I can't comment on this chainwheel setup on a Friday, but I have long

> been a fan of low gears, and as I get older, I'm more so.

I'm hoping someone out there has done this on their Friday; John, what 
rings do you use on your Friday? I'm a fan too, hence my interest. But 
36 is about as small as I'd want to go and keep the 60t outer, or even a

58t.

> 
> I wonder whether you would be able to manage a 36T inner with a 60T
> outer, though. The 24T range is right at the limit of the
> longest-cage front derailleurs, and this problem is exacerbated by
> the 60T large chainring, which usually doesn't conform to the curve
> of the cage, made for 52T or less...

I run a 24-tooth gap on my tandem with a Campy Racing T front with no 
shifting issues, using Ergo shifters; I'm limited to the three biggest 
cogs of an 11-34 when using a 28t inner ring but that's fine with me. A 
Shimano road triple would probably work better with its longer tail.

> The 60-11 gives you a top gear of 109 inches (8.7 m development), 
> higher than you will ever need unless you are a top paceline rider, or

> pedal on downgrades where tucking and coasting gets you going faster 
> anyway.

Yes, it's overkill, but there are no 12- or 13-tooth first cog wide
range cassettes unless you make your own. I make them myself (12-28/8 
most recent) but I think the 11t would make the middle ring more useful.

> 36T would give you a low gear of 21 inches (1.7 m development), about 
> as low as you would ever need unless you are carrying touring baggage 
> up the steepest roads anywhere.

It would, as I said, allow me to run a tighter cassette, like a 12-27 or
12-25. Or I could put on a wide range cassette and climb anything with
bags. Our latest group tour up to Niagara Falls from 
D.C. covered at three steep "stand up or walk" ascents and numerous 
short walls where the option to remain seated would be welcome.

> You might consider going to something like a 40-56 double or 36-46-56

> triple instead. These would avoid some of the shifting problems and  
> still give you an ample gear range for most purposes..

Not bad ideas, but the idea is to setup front gearing where I mostly 
stay in the middle ring. A smaller middle will just force me to the big 
ring sooner.

So, any actual 36t users out there?

Ed Felker
Arlington, VA

> 
> John S. Allen
> 
> jsallen *at* bikexprt.com (replace " *at* " with "@")
> 
> http://www.bikexprt.com/
> 

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: alex wetmore <alex at phred.org>
Subject: Re: [Yak] Triple gearing -- 36t inner?
To: "John S. Allen" <jsallen at bikexprt.com>
Cc: yak at bikefriday.com, Edward Felker <edwardfelker at verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20050819091402.L97377 at phred.org>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, John S. Allen wrote:
> I wonder whether you would be able to manage a 36T inner with a 60T 
> outer,
> though.

My Tandem Two'sday came with 50/60/34 chainrings and worked pretty well.
Most front derailleurs can be pushed quite a bit beyond their limits
without any issues.  I no longer have this bike and it had been
converted to use a 3x7 hub before I sold it.

On a 20" wheeled recumbent I've run 50/46/30, a difference of 30t. 
This worked better on the recumbent then I think it would on a Bike
Friday, but it did shift pretty well.

> The 60-11 gives you a top gear of 109 inches (8.7 m development), 
> higher than
> you will ever need unless you are a top paceline rider, or pedal on 
> downgrades where tucking and coasting gets you going faster anyway.

I agree with this.  On my NWT I use 30/46/56 gearing with an 11-28
cassette.  This gives me a more useful low gear (21") and a plenty high
top gear of around 97" (for a 40-406 tire).  If I expect to do some
loaded touring in the mountains I can put on an 12-32 cassette and get a
stump pulling low gear of 18".

alex

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:32:07 -0400
From: Edward Felker <edwardfelker at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Yak] Triple gearing -- 36t inner?
To: alex wetmore <alex at phred.org>
Cc: yak at bikefriday.com
Message-ID: <43060987.1070101 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

alex wetmore wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005, John S. Allen wrote:
> 
>> I wonder whether you would be able to manage a 36T inner with a 60T
>> outer, though.
> 
> 
> My Tandem Two'sday came with 50/60/34 chainrings and worked pretty 
> well.  Most front derailleurs can be pushed quite a bit beyond their 
> limits without any issues.  I no longer have this bike and it had been

> converted to use a 3x7 hub before I sold it.
> 
> On a 20" wheeled recumbent I've run 50/46/30, a difference of 30t. 
> This
> worked better on the recumbent then I think it would on a Bike
> Friday, but it did shift pretty well.
> 
>> The 60-11 gives you a top gear of 109 inches (8.7 m development),
>> higher than you will ever need unless you are a top paceline rider,
or 
>> pedal on downgrades where tucking and coasting gets you going faster 
>> anyway.
> 
> 
> I agree with this.  On my NWT I use 30/46/56 gearing with an 11-28 
> cassette.  This gives me a more useful low gear (21") and a plenty 
> high top gear of around 97" (for a 40-406 tire).  If I expect to do 
> some loaded touring in the mountains I can put on an 12-32 cassette 
> and get a stump pulling low gear of 18".
> 
> alex

What I'm wondering, is there any clearance issue with using a 36t inner 
on a Pocket Rocket?  Did clearance have any bearing on using a 30t inner

on your NWT?

Also I should have mentioned I'm using 451 wheels, and said I'm not 
forever wedded to a 50-60 middle and outer ring setup, it's just that 
they are coming with the bike and I'd rather not cast them aside given 
the price of big rings.

Ed Felker
Arlington, VA

------------------------------

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